VFRFlight forum, Aviazione Generale, VDS, Ultraleggeri

This is my first post on this forum and I hope there will be many more to follow.

I have been thinking about nothing much else except flying in the past couple of weeks as I am busy preparing our next trip. "We" that is Robert and me, Chris. We are both from Austria and we both are enthusiastic gyrocopter pilots. In 2009 we flew across the US from Boston to San Diego in an open ultralight gyro. You can read about it here (http://www.remedia.at/homeopathy/gyrocopter.html). Last year we visited the Provence. A part of the story along with this trip is here (http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29887).

This year we have two brand new gyrocopter called ArrowCopter, which look and fly like Lamborghinis of the air. Click here (http://www.arrow-copter.com/)to find out more about the ArrowCopter.

So this year we plan to take our two "Laborghinis" and visit Italy. We plan to enter Italy via Slovenia and land first at the Lido (LIPV). From there we fly south along the Adriatic coast to Torraccia, which is just south of Rimini. Next, we turn inland towards Perugia and follow the Appennin mountains.

Ultimately we want to make it as far south as Corte, south of Brindisi. One goal of ours is to fly once around the Etna vulcano. After that, we plan to turn north and follow the western coast. Spending a night on Elba would be nice, too, although I know that gasoline is very expensive there.

So that's the big picture. I would really like to get some local knowledge and hints where to stop. Between Perugia and Corte I still need good places to stop over. Ideally places that can offer gas (Mogas is fine, Avgas is OK, too) and have something nice to offer (food, hospitality, scenery, wine, friendly people, other pilots, etc...)

The ArrowCopter is equipped with ELT, transponder, radio, GPS, etc. and Robert and I both have PPL licenses as well as ULM licenses. We were hoping to fly as "avanzato" and be able to use some of the bigger airports and airspaces also, if necessary. The ArrowCopter itself doesn't yet have an "avanzato" registration in Italy. Is this going to be a problem? What do you think?

I will be preparing a daily flight log with photos for another forum in English and can post it here as well, if there is interest. Also, I will be carrying a SPOT device, which will give a live GPS track of our trip which you can follow along on a public web site. I'll post the URL when I have it.

Hoping to meet a lot of new friends and looking forward to visiting Italy by gyro,

-- Chris.

Hi Chris,
   nice to hear all that. About Slovenia I am pretty sure you kow there is need to get a permission number from SloveniaControl. You can do everything by eMail and usually it takes less then the prescribed two weeks. As you both holds a PPL you can easily have for the whole Slovenian airspace.

About flying in Italy and especially for LIPV, Venice Lido, I just send you in a minute a Private Message....

Looking forward to read here more about your adventures.

Roberto

Dear Chris,

I am not sure but I guess you have read my website www.fliegen-in-italien.de (http://www.fliegen-in-italien.de) and in particular the section about flying ultralights in Italy www.fliegen-in-italien.de/ul.html (http://www.fliegen-in-italien.de/ul.html).

Unfortunately, for foreign microlight flyers, the italian legislation is a real mess. But in a nutshell, the relative DPR133 says that foreign registered microlights are, by default, considered to be non-avanzato. And: it is practically impossible for foreign registered ones to officially obtain the avazanto-status. Therefore, your only chance, if you want to fly to those airports only open to avanzato aircraft (and be certain not to run into any problems) is to contact them all in advance, explain what kind of aircraft, equipment and licenses you have and see if they grant you permission. Unfortunately, that's the situation. It's not enough to "hope" to be considered as an avanzato.

As a side note, the real joys of flying in Italy are really in using the campi di volo and aviosuperfici, anyway. Don't mess with the aeroporti too much. However, I do understand that you would like to land at Lido, which is indeed one of the most beautiful airports in Europe. Same for Elba.

If you have any more questions feel free to contact me.

Good luck...you'll need it...:)

Venezia Lido will be very very happy to welcome you in italy with ur ultralight...for sure.

i dont fully agree as authorities and flight controllers tend to consider and treat all foreign aircrafts  as GA crafts, therefore navigation in airspaces should not be an issue.


but i would advise against using airports. they are generally expensive, bureaucratic, unfriendly, and often have no fuel.

with a few exceptions.

regards

Thanks for the replies!

@Roberto: thanks for the warning about Slovenia. Yes, I know about the permit required to fly ULM in Slovenia. I have done it many times and they are usually easy to obtain. Portoroz is one of my favorite spots to fly to :)

@philt: your website "www.fliegen-in-italien.de" is very helpful and informative. I have studied it in depth. Thanks for compiling all of this information in one place and making it easily accessible. Regarding "avanzato" there seem to be two camps: one says that I won't have much trouble at all if I fly like a "well behaved" avanzato ULM. The other camp warns me about all the problems I might get into and tells me to better stick to the basico rules. Being from Austria -- which, in many respects, is quite different from Germany -- I understand that rules may read one way on paper but are quite different in real life. I am just going to assume that if I fly according to the rules, use my transponder and radio diligently and don't offend anyone I won't be harrassed too much about not being a true avanzato.

@CAT4R4TTA: What do you mean by "Good luck...you'll need it"? That sounds like a send off to Mission Impossible.  :o

I am still working on my route and will post the route when I have it mapped out.

Thanks for all the replies, -- Chris.

Kind of...
Are you really sure you want to ruin ur flying holidays going to italy?!

Anyway...post ur route and let's see...

Hi Chris,

a word of caution on Sandro Cat4ratta.  Like myself and Gianmarco Crono, we are all expats living abroad and though in a line of principle we like our country, we think it's so messed up that we migrated to better places. Well, at least for me and Crono as we are in Switzerland, while Cat4ratta is in England, so I am not sure if that qualifies as a "better" place...   :D

Italy can be a great pain when it comes to flying, extremely bureaucratic and with regulations that make no sense at all.

Like Crono says, you're much better off avoiding airports and relying only on "aviosuperfici" or "campi di volo" which are almost always grass or dirt strips, of which there are plenty. Some of these also have hotels and restaurants next to the strip, so they would be ideal as a stopover for an overnight stay.

Once you've crossed the border, there is no need to talk to ATC unless you want to cross a control zone, or CTR.

One thing is for sure; you've come to the right place for good advice on how and where to fly in Italy in VFR!

Ciao, Luca

Not heeding

Over the past three years we have done three times in the tour of Italy in autogyro flying on campi volo
Some documentation

2010
http://www.vfrflight.net/index.php/topic,5271.msg86878.html#msg86878 (http://www.vfrflight.net/index.php/topic,5271.msg86878.html#msg86878)

2011
http://www.vfrflight.net/index.php/topic,10009.msg144328.html#msg144328 (http://www.vfrflight.net/index.php/topic,10009.msg144328.html#msg144328)


2012
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m532/flyluis/Giro_zps5dff897e.jpg)

http://forumcia.altervista.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=884 (http://forumcia.altervista.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=884)


Other adventures

http://www.vfrflight.net/index.php/topic,8092.msg115879.html#msg115879 (http://www.vfrflight.net/index.php/topic,8092.msg115879.html#msg115879)

http://www.vfrflight.net/index.php/topic,9392.msg135450.html#msg135450 (http://www.vfrflight.net/index.php/topic,9392.msg135450.html#msg135450)

http://www.vfrflight.net/index.php/topic,11679.msg170217.html#msg170217 (http://www.vfrflight.net/index.php/topic,11679.msg170217.html#msg170217)


http://youtu.be/IcCueEPP00g (http://youtu.be/IcCueEPP00g)

http://www.vfrflight.net/index.php/topic,9509.msg137181.html#msg137181 (http://www.vfrflight.net/index.php/topic,9509.msg137181.html#msg137181)


Luigi

Thanks for the information and post of those exciting adventures. I have just returned to the forum and found them just now. Will have to take a closer look at the routing.

For now, here is the route I have tentatively planned for my trip:

Coming from Portoroz I follow the coast line to Venezia-Lido (LIPV).

From there along the coast to Chioggia - Lugo di Romagna - Santa Sofia - Torraccia.

Then Cittá die Castro - Del Sagrantino - Leonardi - L'Aquila - Castel del Monte - Macrí.

From Macrí along the coast to Franca - Gioia Tauro - Villafranca Tirrena - Avios. di Ragusa.

That will be my southernmost point. From There I fly to Crotone - Scalea - Salerno - Benevento - Aliocco.

Keeping in a northerly direction from Aliocco - Serristori - Renzo Storai - Il Ranch - Blue Silos - Rivoli di osoppo and the Canal valley to Klagenfurt.

Is there anything I am missing? Some place so noteworthy that I simply have to go out of my way to visit? As already noted I am planning on going "avanzato" if necessary but try to remain in "basico" airspace if that doesn't mean going out of may way too much.

What do guys think?

Thank you for your kind feedback, -- Chris.

For Aviostorai, please take a look here http://www.aviostorai.com/aviostorai/Home.html (http://www.aviostorai.com/aviostorai/Home.html) section "info"

Hi Chris, if you come to Macrì airfield and need a help with language or anything else, just let me know. However, if you keep me updated about your route, we could at least meet and take a good coffee  :)

regarding the "Avanzato"

my suggestion would be to forget about it. just fly GA style, or turn radio off, go down to treetop level and have fun. as it is more convenient to you. another option is to appear and disappear if you need to cross some airspace. at any rate, there are controlled airspaces where VFR is not allowed at all, or is so mistreated that the treetop level option again becomes attractive.

FICs are all useless and radio coverage dysmal if you are not very high.

Just to let you know, we are still earthbound. We had a few obstacles to overcome, which all turned out reasonably well. We have two ArrowCopters (http://http:\\www.arrow-copter.com) available to us. Our stuff is packed and the route planned. We have redundancy in many things, which is comforting.

The only thing we don't have is good weather. Well, it's good at home but bad all around us. And in about 24-36 hours it will be bad at home, too. There's an ungainly low pressure system hunkering down over the Mediterranean area which spews rain and low clouds all over the wrong places.

On Monday the weather south of Venice is forecast to be good with lingering rain showers, and low level moisture (read very low clouds and areas of fog) north. If we can make it far enough south we should be good.

Here is our route for the first day:

[ATTACH]104173[/ATTACH]

Take off will be at Sankt Georgen (1), LOLG. It would be possible to fly to Rijeka (3), LDRI, on one tank but not in iffy weather where we might have to turn back or deviate. Therefore we stop in Punitz (2), LOGG, just to fill 'er up and press on. Weather permitting, we also just refuel in Rijeka (clear customs) and embark on the third leg of the day to Venice-Lido (4), LIPV, where we have to land and clear customs. Then, the last part takes us to Torraccia (5).

Apart from the weather, which is going to be the biggest challenge, we have to clear customs twice (into and out of Croatia) and deal with the fact that Venice-Lido airport is closed on Mondays.

Total distance is 470 nm, total flight time about 4:30 hours. Figuring about 2 hours for the three refueling stops that's a total of 6:30 hours. A tall order. We might only make it to Rijeka...

I'll keep you updated, just check back here.

-- Chris.

With a heavy heart and after some difficult deliberation I have to announce that we cancelled our trip to Italy due to inlcement weather.

We had originally planned to leave on Friday, May 24, but had to postpone until Monday. Then, sitting at the airport and waiting for the rain to stop, we simply ran out of time. There was bad weather to varying degrees from the Baltic Sea to the Gulf of Triest and even further south. Embedded thunderstorms, low ceilings, patchy fog in the mornings, rain showers etc. And it wasn't forecast to improve any time soon. Apart from leaving late we would also have had to plan for several weather related hold-ups. Overall, the balance between a relaxing trip and a fight against the weather didn't pan out for us.

So sadly, we had to cancel for now but we'll be back later!

Thanks for all the friendly support from this forum, -- Chris.

P.S.: ... looking at Semptember ...

you were VERY unlucky with weather. never seen a may like this.

Yes, that seems to be the case all around. Got to be better in September.

-- Chris.

After  more than 30 years flying  by and large  around the Mediterranean area  and countries  I can  state, assure,  and ready to certify it   , that May is the month  with  the most  fucked-up weather  of the whole year.

ckurz 7000.

I am sorry to hear your proposed journey had to be postponed  :o   I deliberately watched this thread as a few characters I know were giving opinions that differed immensely and I always like to watch the ' Clash of the Titans ' to see who throws in the towel first   :D

The reality of 'Other Europeans' flying in Italian Airspace is such that even the best of their Air Traffic Controllers just ignore whatever you are doing and go back to munching pasta & drinking limoncello whilst you do as you please ( been there many times, many times done that ).

From experience, if you have a callsign like I-1234 then you can't do too much if you play by their draconian regulations and main airports will impound your aircraft, but if your callsign is something like I-A123 then you can use most main airports as their Air Traffic Controllers think you are advanced aircraft and may just put down their pasta to assist you  :)

From what I assume the Arrow-copters would be displaying OE-??? markings ?  In my experience any combination of lettering/numbering that doesn't start with I baffles the hell out of the Air Traffic Controllers & Airport staff  :P   I used Albenga in a foreign registered C42 and they asked if it " was an advanced ultralight ? "  I just said " Yes "    now any Italian C42 is I-2345 registered and would be instantly impounded in Albenga but as is the case in 99% of things Bullshit baffles Brains.

Getting onto those Characters who have differing opinions, I know Crono very well, Luca I have met a few times & Cat4r4tta I have exchanged views with on this forum.... All have substantial knowledge to offer and on balance would all advise you with good intention  :-X
All 3 are Italian 'ex pats' who hold their country in high regard but left for ' pastures new '  I am sure Luca & Cat4r4tta left Italy out of choice, but Crono was ' railroaded ' out for unknown reasons ( only joking ).  Luca & Crono seem to look for positives in Italian Aviation whilst Cat4r4tta seems to highlight negatives in Italian Aviation.  I guess I subscribe to Crono's way of adapting rules to make things easier to enjoy my flying in Italy.

I suppose " The grass is always greener on the other side " as I love flying in Italy and find it more enjoyable than UK flying.... but an Italian friend who recently flew near London in a UK registered EuroStar was impressed by being allowed to fly at 2000ft so close to our Capital City, yet I always complain about London having such restrictive airspace.

A tutti gli ATC del Forum: ma tutta questa pasta e limoncello non vi farà male?  :-X

To all ATCs of the Forum: but all this pasta and limoncello will not hurt you?  :-X

For as much as you think you are funny I tell you something, mr. Ferryair...you're not!
Your affirmation regarding the Air Traffic controller  going back to munch pasta and drinking limoncello are quite offensive, like your line regarding the impounding of the aircraft on some airports...that is actually a bullshit...how they can impound an aircraft if the ATC will not allow you to land on that airport?
I'm an expat too and for as much as agree with 99% of Luca, Crono and Sandro comments about the very sad situation of flying AG or ultralights planes in Italy I really cannot accept your childish behaviour...but of course you were joking weren't you?

Although flying in Italy seems to be crapsy, almost all of ATC complains the existing rules.
Regarding these rules, no basic VDS can obtain any AT assistance at all; foreign callsigns can be confused and can generate the troubles FerryAir has described.

FerryAir, little bit unfairy, aren't U?  ;)

I am from Austria. Austriamis a country between Germany and Italy...and I don't mean only geographically. As strange as it may seem, I can relate to the "Italian way". Though I haven't flown in Italy yet (been to Croatia, Slovenia and France) I expect a lot of contradictory experiences. Some of the most beautoful countryside, people who value good food over fast food and fellow pilots who share the same passion with me.

Then there is the other part, which plagues Italy probably more than other European countries. It is labyrinthean beaurocracy, unintelligeable regulations and a general abhorrance of everything governmental. I am hoping to meet the people and get to know some of them. I want to learn how people deal with this problem. I expect to find individuals who each have found their own personal way of consolidating personal freedom with officialdom.

The posts on this thread are all very enlightening to me. They give me a small taste of what I expectnto find on my trip.

Thank you, -- Chris.

Aldo,

I was partially joking but in the main giving a Brit's view on how I found flying in Italy  :-\

You mention " how they can impound an aircraft if the ATC will not allow you to land on that airport "  I know for a fact that this has happened in Italy !!!!

Anyway, I did say I enjoy my flying in Italy so I am not negating your flying regulations, just saying the regulations are best adapted in your own mind  :o

Italian ATC are easily confused  ;) I have used  G Callsigns, SX Callsigns, I-1234 Callsigns, I-A123 and to really confuse them I have used a Company designated callsign.

I abhor the 150m & 300m agl flight profiles that ULM are given to follow, I always adapt that by a 'self imposed' flight profile of 600m & 750m agl flight profile irrespective of ULM & GA.

In general I like Italian Aviation, just not sure it suits me with some of the craziness attached  :'(

cambia traduttore :D

Ferryair
think and write whatever you want,I agree a good deal with your statements,   we are in a free world  but please  ( and I am addressing not only you but the other 400 millons anglosaxons around the world)  disregard old fashioned and unrealistic topics about  Italy:

that goes for the pasta  (which is widely eaten in WASP countries also..)
and of course for the mandolin. In 4 decades around Italy I never happen to know anybody owning or even knowing of somebody owning a mandolino ,    Italy topical image from late 50s neorealistic black and white movies has disappeared  , long ago.

we eat pasta but also sushi and hamburgers, we fly planes and we drive Ferraris (the only donkeys  left,by the way,  are the ones sitting in the Parliament..) 
regards
ooava

disregard Peter's stupid humour. he is only envious of the good food and drinks you can find in italy. compare that with the hideous stuff they eat and drink in great britain. hadn't they imported curry and other goods from the empire, they would be still eating shit like steak and kidney pie and drinking the horse piss they call english beer

My stupid humour only came to the forefront when I was invited to a Party in Milano thrown by Crono
 ;)
It was initiated by the venue being held in stifling heat and Lemoncello being the chosen 'coolant' to keep me cool  :P

My ' Brit on his holidays ' mentality actually tested the Italian Hotelier to the maximum on the night before Crono's party when after nearly 1litre of the alcoholic lemon juice I decided to re-enact the Barnes Wallis bouncing bomb a few times in the hotel pool and supply the hotel guests with a 'floating' dancefloor for the hotel disco  :o

I blame Crono for my stupid humour as I was a very introvert person before attending one of his parties and he corrupted my mind with all the copious lemoncello & debauchery that was at the party. I was so shocked by such copious supplies of lemoncello & debauchery that I had to attend a few more of his parties just to ensure that the first party was a rarity in terms of amounts of lemoncello consumed and debauchery witnessed  :-\        Thankfully all his parties are as well organised, so I have acquired quite a palate for lemoncello and a penchant for debauchery  :D

I still can't believe I flew a Skyranger back from Milan to Edinburgh after one of his Party weekends.

So I am speaking ' tongue in cheek ' when I mention Pasta & Lemoncello as I probably eat more Pasta than I eat shitty Steak & Kidney Pie, I certainly drink far more Lemoncello than the horse piss the 'Brits' call beer........ though it seems the UK has a bigger consumption of horsemeat now than we do of horse piss.

Anyway it looks like I will be making a few visits for flying purposes in the next month or so  :-X   

it was not limoncello, it was windscreen washing fluid  :P

The matter is the regulation, no input about foreign registration marks. And even the law about italian microlights in not...very clear!

Generally speaking, you are right thinking that using foreign callsigns, nobody will make questions...but just hope nothing happens...you would face italian unpredicable justice...

pasta & limoncello...don't match that much! limoncello if you like at the end prior to the coffee (espresso)...

in my place anyway no limoncello...we usually do pida e parsot...e sanzvès

At salud

man, you are talking to uncivilized people, food and drink wise. they probably had cappuccino after the pasta anyway

 :P

That shit you gave me in the Plastic 5litre Can was Antifreeze mixed with Windscreen Washing fluid, I was pissing on car windows and they were sparkling  :'( 

It's always interesting to watch the direction a thread takes...

-- Chris.

:D nothing to worry about, we all know each other personally, just some innocent slagging

Well much as I don't like to admit knowing some of these characters, I actually have more respect for my Italian Flying Friends than I do for my British Flying Acquaintances, as Crono says " it is just some innocent slagging " or I would say " Friendly banter "

In the UK I tend to analyse every remark said by my British Flying Acquaintances as invariably it will lead to a ' severe backstabbing ' Even my closest British Flying Friends are prone to having more faces than the Town Hall clock tower. I am big enough to take criticism, but I prefer it to be made to my face rather than via vitriolic rumormongers.

So don't think you are ' witnessing ' a bunfight here.... this is just a load of jesters having fun.   

I have been around in several forums and each has its own charm.

It took me a bit to figure out what's going on but I am fine and am enjoying it.

Keep it up, -- Chris.